surprise surprise the oe bolts are in fact 175mm, not 150 like they told me on the phone...and now theyre going back on their word and saying they wont refund them because theyre not faulty - even though they promised a refund of they came in and werent 150mm long...
so avoid citroen coventry on the A45 - theyre lying scumbags!
replaced bottom end....still not right...help please!!
Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a couple of these bolt holes that have dead ends or am I getting this mixed with a DKZ engine?
If they are dead ends, then whatever you do, don't squirt oil down them as it just compresses in the ends when the bolts come down on it and can give a false reading when the head's being torqued down.
I go to all kinds of lengths when I do these engines to make certain threads are clean, holes are empty and that the bolts screw in by hand right through the threads before I begin to bolt up. I also paint a light coat of lubricant over the entire bolt as I wind the threads in and out, but having said all that, like you, I'd be sceptical that this was the entire problem.
Look for marks up the bore on the offending cylinder that might indicate a broken ring. Check that there is no corrosion pits that may be allowing a tracking through and even though it's not recommended practice, I know of plenty of rebuilders who use "Hylomar" gasket sealer on head gaskets of these and swear it's necessary to get a proper seal.
One thing that needs to be clarified is, has the same head been on both engines? If so, that has to be prime suspect. A couple of points worthy of checking on that is, be 100% certain that those oil galleys are clear. On the series one, the head rebuilder on ours had to actually drill out the ends of a couple, clean them through then refit bungs to get them clear.
Another is the valve stem seals and valve guides on the cylinder causing the problem. Badly worn guides will suck oil in regardless of the seals. I also have here an Mi16 that had seals fitted incorrectly that I saw pump 5 litres of 25W60 through it on a 400 klms trip. If not fitted tightly to the guide but instead are stuck on the valve stem, they act like a sludge pump and literally pump oil down the guide.
With the bottom end, when you removed the head gasket, you say it looked like it hadn't been tightened down, but what did the metal rings that sit on top of the liners look? Were they really flattened? If not, were one or two of them badly squashed in comparison to the rest?
If so, then perhaps the liners may have been disturbed although usually, anything from a block of hardwood to a lump hammer against a block of wood is usually needed to dislodge them, but it has been known to (occasionally) happen. The straight edge across the face of the block from a variety of angles should confirm that one way or the other.
IMO, the only way this can have caused a problem is if the bottom end hadn't been used for a while and white rust has grown on the grooves that the liners sit in. To rectify this then becomes a case of whipping the sump off, removing the big ends and tapping the lot out the top. Clean the area where they sit as well as the outer lower edges of the liners, fitting new seals ("O" rings the diameter of the bottom of the liner and about 1-2mm thick) wiping a smear of vaseline over before refitting and then reassembling. This is getting a bit drastic as you also need to remove the oil pump in the process.
Sorry for the long rant, but as I often say, these engines have to be worked on in a very methodical manner and leave nothing to chance. I hope it helps you find and fix the cause.
Alan S
If they are dead ends, then whatever you do, don't squirt oil down them as it just compresses in the ends when the bolts come down on it and can give a false reading when the head's being torqued down.
I go to all kinds of lengths when I do these engines to make certain threads are clean, holes are empty and that the bolts screw in by hand right through the threads before I begin to bolt up. I also paint a light coat of lubricant over the entire bolt as I wind the threads in and out, but having said all that, like you, I'd be sceptical that this was the entire problem.
Look for marks up the bore on the offending cylinder that might indicate a broken ring. Check that there is no corrosion pits that may be allowing a tracking through and even though it's not recommended practice, I know of plenty of rebuilders who use "Hylomar" gasket sealer on head gaskets of these and swear it's necessary to get a proper seal.
One thing that needs to be clarified is, has the same head been on both engines? If so, that has to be prime suspect. A couple of points worthy of checking on that is, be 100% certain that those oil galleys are clear. On the series one, the head rebuilder on ours had to actually drill out the ends of a couple, clean them through then refit bungs to get them clear.
Another is the valve stem seals and valve guides on the cylinder causing the problem. Badly worn guides will suck oil in regardless of the seals. I also have here an Mi16 that had seals fitted incorrectly that I saw pump 5 litres of 25W60 through it on a 400 klms trip. If not fitted tightly to the guide but instead are stuck on the valve stem, they act like a sludge pump and literally pump oil down the guide.
With the bottom end, when you removed the head gasket, you say it looked like it hadn't been tightened down, but what did the metal rings that sit on top of the liners look? Were they really flattened? If not, were one or two of them badly squashed in comparison to the rest?
If so, then perhaps the liners may have been disturbed although usually, anything from a block of hardwood to a lump hammer against a block of wood is usually needed to dislodge them, but it has been known to (occasionally) happen. The straight edge across the face of the block from a variety of angles should confirm that one way or the other.
IMO, the only way this can have caused a problem is if the bottom end hadn't been used for a while and white rust has grown on the grooves that the liners sit in. To rectify this then becomes a case of whipping the sump off, removing the big ends and tapping the lot out the top. Clean the area where they sit as well as the outer lower edges of the liners, fitting new seals ("O" rings the diameter of the bottom of the liner and about 1-2mm thick) wiping a smear of vaseline over before refitting and then reassembling. This is getting a bit drastic as you also need to remove the oil pump in the process.
Sorry for the long rant, but as I often say, these engines have to be worked on in a very methodical manner and leave nothing to chance. I hope it helps you find and fix the cause.
Alan S
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Anonymous
hi alan,
not a rant at all and very helpful, thanks.
ok...
the liners arent dislodged, as far as i can tell with a steel rule all is flat on the block.
yes a couple of the bolt holes are dead ends but theres is no oil or debris down there. nonetheless i will give the threads a good clean and make sure the bolts go in by hand as you suggest.
im sure the rings havent gone due to lack of liner wear and the fact ive used two apparently good bottom ends so im willing to write that one off
blocked oil ways are i suppose a possibility but one that im not confident of checking for myself, other than a visual inspection im not sure how to check them?
stem seals / valve guide wise theyre all where theyre supposed to be still and the oil doesnt appear to be getting in that way, rather it comes across the gasket, unless any other traces are burnt off but im sure theyd leave some clues.
so, as you say, the only common factor in the 4 times it has been together is the head and so i think its worth putting a different head on tommorrow...when you say some rebuilders use hylomar, do you mean they smear it on the block, head, liner tops and on the gasket (both sides?) and if so which hylomar sealant - i have hylomar blue universal that i used on the sump, this is described as a non setting sealant on the packet, is this the right stuff? and would you use this, it sounds a bit of a bodge to me?
tomorrow im going to have a final clean up and check over everything, double check for opinions on here and then go ahead putting the other head on, it has to be worth a shot. the only other question i have is that could i be doing something wrong when cleaing up the head each time? - i generally use a scraper to scrape off stuck gasket, medium emery to get it clean then fine emery to finish (both on a wooden block) and am very careful not to scratch or score the face at all.
thanks again
ally
not a rant at all and very helpful, thanks.
ok...
the liners arent dislodged, as far as i can tell with a steel rule all is flat on the block.
yes a couple of the bolt holes are dead ends but theres is no oil or debris down there. nonetheless i will give the threads a good clean and make sure the bolts go in by hand as you suggest.
im sure the rings havent gone due to lack of liner wear and the fact ive used two apparently good bottom ends so im willing to write that one off
blocked oil ways are i suppose a possibility but one that im not confident of checking for myself, other than a visual inspection im not sure how to check them?
stem seals / valve guide wise theyre all where theyre supposed to be still and the oil doesnt appear to be getting in that way, rather it comes across the gasket, unless any other traces are burnt off but im sure theyd leave some clues.
so, as you say, the only common factor in the 4 times it has been together is the head and so i think its worth putting a different head on tommorrow...when you say some rebuilders use hylomar, do you mean they smear it on the block, head, liner tops and on the gasket (both sides?) and if so which hylomar sealant - i have hylomar blue universal that i used on the sump, this is described as a non setting sealant on the packet, is this the right stuff? and would you use this, it sounds a bit of a bodge to me?
tomorrow im going to have a final clean up and check over everything, double check for opinions on here and then go ahead putting the other head on, it has to be worth a shot. the only other question i have is that could i be doing something wrong when cleaing up the head each time? - i generally use a scraper to scrape off stuck gasket, medium emery to get it clean then fine emery to finish (both on a wooden block) and am very careful not to scratch or score the face at all.
thanks again
ally
When I recently did the DKZ engine, I used a Rolls Royce sealant I was given by an old mate who reckons it's the old version of Hylomar. He reckoned to paint it all with it, but I can see that ending in tears with the way that stuff can get in places you don't really want it, so I painted the face of the block as well as the head and sat the gasket on the block, then sat the head on top. It worked perfectly.
The idea of the sealant is to fill up any imperfections and according to him, he reckons he has used it for 40 years and on vintage cars, often re-used head gaskets they have come off in such good nick several years later.
I keep getting this feeling that this problem is in that head somewhere.
As regards cleaning through these galleys, I get my head work done by a guy who specialises in them and is involved in a lot of race cars, so he is extremely thorough (and charges accordingly) but when I get a head back from him, I know it's going to be 100% at least; his work is very impressive and he gives big guarantees so he exhudes confidence and with good reason.
It seems in these days of high tech engines, there is no allowance for anything short of perfection. These thiungs will catch you out every time from my experience.
Alan S
The idea of the sealant is to fill up any imperfections and according to him, he reckons he has used it for 40 years and on vintage cars, often re-used head gaskets they have come off in such good nick several years later.
I keep getting this feeling that this problem is in that head somewhere.
As regards cleaning through these galleys, I get my head work done by a guy who specialises in them and is involved in a lot of race cars, so he is extremely thorough (and charges accordingly) but when I get a head back from him, I know it's going to be 100% at least; his work is very impressive and he gives big guarantees so he exhudes confidence and with good reason.
It seems in these days of high tech engines, there is no allowance for anything short of perfection. These thiungs will catch you out every time from my experience.
Alan S
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docchevron1472
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Er, the liners shouldn't be totally flat with the block, there should be some protrusion, I just cant remember how much off the top of my head, and it's very late to be trawling back home to check the data book...ally wrote:the liners arent dislodged, as far as i can tell with a steel rule all is flat on the block.
1990 BX 16v Phase 2
1989 BX TD hybrid
1971 BL 350FG Ambulance (unique)
1993 Dennis Lance 132
That's when I reach for my Revolver
1989 BX TD hybrid
1971 BL 350FG Ambulance (unique)
1993 Dennis Lance 132
That's when I reach for my Revolver
Does 1mm sound about right?docchevron1472 wrote:Er, the liners shouldn't be totally flat with the block, there should be some protrusion, I just cant remember how much off the top of my head, and it's very late to be trawling back home to check the data book...ally wrote:the liners arent dislodged, as far as i can tell with a steel rule all is flat on the block.
Alan S
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Anonymous
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docchevron1472
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Yep, sounds right to me mate.AlanS wrote: Does 1mm sound about right?
Alan S
I think mine were 0.75mm, or somewhere there abouts.
Doesn't sound alot, but it makes all the difference!
I used sealer on the liner seals, but I haven't ever used any gasket goo on a head gasket. If it needs goo, somethings wrong.Ally wrote:im a bit woried about the hylomar idea but im wiling to give it a go
I work nights mate, I'm usually on teh 'puter till the sun comes up..Ally wrote:and doc...what were u doing online at 2.07 am!?!
I reckon I should be ok with that, The strange hours I keep here should mean I'm about right your time!AlanS wrote:Setting his body clock for when he tours Australia.
I just have to ensure the car gets there about the same time I do!
1990 BX 16v Phase 2
1989 BX TD hybrid
1971 BL 350FG Ambulance (unique)
1993 Dennis Lance 132
That's when I reach for my Revolver
1989 BX TD hybrid
1971 BL 350FG Ambulance (unique)
1993 Dennis Lance 132
That's when I reach for my Revolver
The logic as I see it in using a sealer is that given the age of these cars and (over here anyway) the habit of owners to use water or outdated coolant in them has caused many to be very pitted particularly on the head. These pits can cause sealing problems as regards fluids such as oils and coolant, so much so that when I collected the head from the TZi I just redid, the machinist warned me not to put coolant directly into it, but rather use it for a couple of weeks with water in due to the ethylene glycol finding tracks which will fill as gaskets and seals swell with use.
Using the sealers is just a safety option to fill and seal some of these things and once the head is bolted down and the sealant cured, should prevent any leakage. It is only painted on as a very thin coat, but some of the pros out here use this Hylomar on every head off job they do and all reckon it is almost a must and that they have had no problems since doing it. Previously, they apparently struck the odd one that caught them out, so they use it as an insurance.
Alan S
Using the sealers is just a safety option to fill and seal some of these things and once the head is bolted down and the sealant cured, should prevent any leakage. It is only painted on as a very thin coat, but some of the pros out here use this Hylomar on every head off job they do and all reckon it is almost a must and that they have had no problems since doing it. Previously, they apparently struck the odd one that caught them out, so they use it as an insurance.
Alan S
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Anonymous
Havn't read all replies, so forgive me if I'm going over same ground.
1. If an engine has burnt a lot of oil in the past, it can take a LOT of driving to clear/burn old oil from manifolds, exhaust system etc. Maybe its just the old oil?
I once (I'm ashamed to admit) put a head gasket on the wrong way round on a BX 4X4. The resulting smoke was incredible. So bad, in fact, that the Brierfield/Nelson motorway had a temporary speed restriction imposed on it!! When it was done correctly, it took about 20 miles before exhaust was clear of old oil.
When the engine was stripped down again, the gasket looked unused and unsquashed. They always do if you strip down again a newly rebuilt head.
2. Have a look at the rubber pipe that goes to the block where you fill the oil through for blockage and try removing it and look for blockage caused by sludge: it may be a breathing problem. Is it slow to fill with oil?
I would try running the car for a few miles to see if it clears up with use, you may be suprised, I once rebuilt a Polo engine that took a long-long run to clear the old oil from the exhaust. Is there back-pressure when you lift the dipstick with the engine running? Good luck.
1. If an engine has burnt a lot of oil in the past, it can take a LOT of driving to clear/burn old oil from manifolds, exhaust system etc. Maybe its just the old oil?
I once (I'm ashamed to admit) put a head gasket on the wrong way round on a BX 4X4. The resulting smoke was incredible. So bad, in fact, that the Brierfield/Nelson motorway had a temporary speed restriction imposed on it!! When it was done correctly, it took about 20 miles before exhaust was clear of old oil.
When the engine was stripped down again, the gasket looked unused and unsquashed. They always do if you strip down again a newly rebuilt head.
2. Have a look at the rubber pipe that goes to the block where you fill the oil through for blockage and try removing it and look for blockage caused by sludge: it may be a breathing problem. Is it slow to fill with oil?
I would try running the car for a few miles to see if it clears up with use, you may be suprised, I once rebuilt a Polo engine that took a long-long run to clear the old oil from the exhaust. Is there back-pressure when you lift the dipstick with the engine running? Good luck.
leak
I may have missed something but when I started reading my initial thoughts were warped head or a false torque reading i.e. the head not tight down.
Worth remembering that there are varying lengths of bolts available and gasket thicknesses, also it is doubtfull but are all the steel spacers present that fit in the head in the bolt holes.
If you are still at aodds with it have the head pressure tested for about £25 can save a lot of head scratching.
Cheers
Luke
Worth remembering that there are varying lengths of bolts available and gasket thicknesses, also it is doubtfull but are all the steel spacers present that fit in the head in the bolt holes.
If you are still at aodds with it have the head pressure tested for about £25 can save a lot of head scratching.
Cheers
Luke
Please call me Luke 
1989 BX 16valve White 70k almost up to scratch
1989 BX 16valve White 70k almost up to scratch
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Anonymous
Hi guys, thought id write a quick update,
i cleaned the bolt holes thoroughly, took the head to an engineering company to check it was flat again and then put it back on using the hylomar as was recommended
i did the bolts up to the specified torque/angles and went round with a torque wrench afterwards to double check - some bolts were 65ish llb/ft and others were more like 75, which i find strange.
the looser ones would only tighten to around 70 then just seemed to turn so i left them at that as theyre already slightly over tightened if you go by the peugeot method.
when it started it was the same problem but as it runs the idle is improving and the smoke is going slowly, so i need to take it out for a run i think and see if it clears up.
but....i did notice the oil filter thing in the head has fallen out - where does this go and how important is it?
cheers
ally
i cleaned the bolt holes thoroughly, took the head to an engineering company to check it was flat again and then put it back on using the hylomar as was recommended
i did the bolts up to the specified torque/angles and went round with a torque wrench afterwards to double check - some bolts were 65ish llb/ft and others were more like 75, which i find strange.
the looser ones would only tighten to around 70 then just seemed to turn so i left them at that as theyre already slightly over tightened if you go by the peugeot method.
when it started it was the same problem but as it runs the idle is improving and the smoke is going slowly, so i need to take it out for a run i think and see if it clears up.
but....i did notice the oil filter thing in the head has fallen out - where does this go and how important is it?
cheers
ally
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docchevron1472
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I hate to say it, but if you kept turning the head bolts after angle tightening, then they will be FUBAR, and will not do the intended job. The reason that they will have felt like they weren't tightening is that they are stretch bolts, over stretch them and they lose their elasticity.ally wrote: the looser ones would only tighten to around 70 then just seemed to turn so i left them at that as theyre already slightly over tightened if you go by the peugeot method.
1990 BX 16v Phase 2
1989 BX TD hybrid
1971 BL 350FG Ambulance (unique)
1993 Dennis Lance 132
That's when I reach for my Revolver
1989 BX TD hybrid
1971 BL 350FG Ambulance (unique)
1993 Dennis Lance 132
That's when I reach for my Revolver